The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool

Cross posted at No Quarter

Warning: This is a long diary. It contains substance. If you are fact challenged or allergic to truth go elsewhere. This diary may be harmful to your health.

US News has a very important and extremely enlightening article about the strength of the respective candidacies of Hillary and Obama. While no one can deny that Obama has carried more states, his actual strength in many of the states has been very concentrated, not widespread as the campaign would have you believe. Michael Barone states that Obama Appeals to Academics and Clinton Appeals to Jacksonians. And yes, the title speaks for itself. Obama's support is largely concentrated in areas where among other things he has vast African American support. While Hillary's support is more widespread across the country.

In reviewing the maps of the Democratic primary results, in Dave Leip's electoral atlas, I was struck by the narrow geographic base of Barack Obama's candidacy. In state after state, he has carried only a few counties--though, to be sure, in many cases counties with large populations. There are exceptions, particularly in the southern states with large numbers of black voters in both urban and rural counties. But overall, the geographic analysis has pointed up to me a divide between Democratic constituencies--a divide as stark as that between blacks and Latinos or the old and the young--which has not shown up in the exit polls. It's a division that helps to explain the quite different performances of Obama and Hillary Clinton in general election pairings against John McCain.

As an example of Mr. Barone's very detailed analysis, let's take a look at Michigan where Obama withdrew from the race but encouraged his supporters to vote "Uncommitted."

Michigan. The Democratic National Committee has ruled that these results do not count, and Obama was not on the ballot, though prominent Democrats urged Obama supporters to vote for "Uncommitted." Hillary Clinton beat "Uncommitted" by the unambiguous but not overwhelming margin of 55 percent to 40 percent. Yet Obama carried only two of 83 counties: Emmet County, a small county at the northern tip of the Lower Peninsula, and Washtenaw County, the site of the University of Michigan and Eastern Michigan University. "Uncommitted" beat Clinton in two of 15 congressional districts, the black-majority 13th and 14th districts.

As is quite clear, Obama did well in only two counties in the whole state. Two counties out of 83. Not exactly widespread popularity. Conversely, in South Carolina Obama did very well. He only lost two counties. One to Hillary and one to Edwards.

In Florida, again Obama did not do very well considering the margin by which he lost the state. He won in only 5 Congressional districts statewide. Considering his lack of popular support in Michigan and Florida it is no wonder he is standing in the way of having their votes counted. In fact he only won in 7 of 67 counties in Florida.

Florida. The Democratic National Committee has ruled that these results do not count; all the candidates were on the ballot but didn't campaign here (unless you count a national cable TV ad for Obama and Clinton's arrival in the state on Election Day). Obama carried five of the state's 25 congressional districts--the two panhandle districts (1, 2) with narrow pluralities over Clinton and Edwards and the three black-majority (or near-majority) districts (3, 17, 23). In terms of counties, he carried only seven of 67 counties, including Duval (Jacksonville), Alachua (the University of Florida), and Leon (the state capital and Florida State and Florida A&M universities). He trailed Clinton by fairly large margins in the big I-4 corridor and Gold Coast counties where Edwards was a minimal factor.

According to Barone, it was in Georgia that a pronounced split began to occur between the supporters of Obama and the supporters of Hillary. While Obama won Georgia big, the strength of his support began to dwindle in the northern counties where they they went dramatically for Hillary. This marks the beginning of the distinction between what Barrone defines as the Jacksonians and the Academics.

But note that the counties at the northern edge of the state voted for Clinton, in many cases by wide margins. This was the first sign in the primary season of Obama's great weakness among Appalachian voters--call them Jacksonians, after their first president. We see this also in Alabama, where Obama lost all but one county north of Birmingham and several counties in the southern wiregrass region: These are almost entirely white counties (indeed they were conquered from the Indians by Andrew Jackson and settled by Tennesseans). Note Clinton's 85 percent in Winston County, a hill county ornery enough to have opposed the Confederacy in the Civil War.

This pattern of voting continued in Tennessee, Arkansas and Oklahoma, where Obama only carried one county. The trend continued even into New Mexico where Obama won in the more affluent communities but Hillary won more overall and more wide spread throughout the state. In Missouri where Obama claimed victory, he carried only 5 counties in the entire state. And most in counties that were heavily African American. The pattern of Jacksonian defection was also demonstrated in Obama's home state of Illinois.

Then there's Missouri. Obama's 49 percent-to-48 percent win didn't net him any delegates, but it gave him rights to brag that he could carry the southern-accented Midwest. Except that he carried only small geographic parts of it: St. Louis City and St. Louis County (the county is much larger than the city, and more blacks live in the county than in the city), Jackson County (central Kansas City), Cole County (Jefferson City, the state capital), Boone County (Columbia, the University of Missouri), and rural Nodaway County in the far northwest (did some Iowa caucus organizers go over the line?). He lost Pike County, Mark Twain's home county, 63 percent to 33 percent, and Dunklin County in the southeast boot heel 78 percent to 18 percent. There's a similar pattern to Obama's landslide victory in his home state of Illinois, which he carried 65 percent to 33 percent but where he lost 14 of 102 counties, all of them in far downstate Illinois, all of them originally settled by southerners--more Jacksonian country.

In Texas where Hillary won 51% to 47% Obama won in only 24 counties while Hillary won in 226. Quite a significant difference. And in Ohio where Hillary turned this race around, Obama carried only 5 counties and 4 Congressional Districts.

In Ohio,
Clinton won 54 percent to 44 percent. Obama carried only five of 88 counties: Cuyahoga (Cleveland), Franklin (Columbus: state capital, Ohio State University), Delaware (upscale Columbus suburbs), Montgomery (Dayton), and Hamilton (Cincinnati). He carried only four congressional districts, 1 (Cincinnati), 3 (Dayton), 10 (east side of Cleveland), and 12 (Columbus), and came very close in 15 (the other side of Columbus). Clinton won between 61 percent and 70 percent in four districts: 6 (Ohio River from Portsmouth up toward Youngstown), 10 (west side of Cleveland), 17 (Youngstown-Akron), and 18 (east central Ohio). Here we see our Jacksonians again, very negative toward Obama. On Fox News on election night, I emphasized the strong Clinton (or weak Obama) showings in southern Ohio, and I think rightly so. I was stunned by the size of the Clinton margins, and I have thought ever since that this bodes ill for Obama's chances of winning votes in western and central Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Kentucky, and perhaps (though it's a small part of the state) western North Carolina.

Barone sees this as an epic battle between two tribes within American culture, the Academics and the Warriors (Jacksonians).

Obama is of course the Academic.

Like Stevenson, he speaks fluently and often eloquently but does not exude a sense of command. He is an interlocutor, not a fighter. His habit of stating his opponents' arguments fairly and sometimes more persuasively than they do themselves has been a political asset among his peers and in the press but not among Jacksonians, who are more interested in defeating than in understanding their enemies.

And Hillary is obviously the Warrior.

In contrast to Obama, Clinton has given herself the image of a fighter. And it's not entirely inauthentic. Against very unfavorable odds, she is continuing to campaign and to insist--and for Jacksonians, this is among the most admirable of qualities--that she is not a quitter. She is fighting fair and foul--think about her lies about being under fire in Bosnia--but she is still fighting, and Jacksonians may not hold her lies heavily against her. We have seen her rebound from humiliations professional (healthcare) and personal (Monica Lewinsky) and keep fighting. This is off-putting to academics but admirable, or something close to that, to Jacksonians.

That's our gal. She never gives up, never gives in. She projects strength and seasoned experience. Exactly the qualities we need in our President. And Barone agrees, he believes that because Hillary is a warrior she stands a very good chance of getting the popular vote, with or without Michigan and Florida.

Clinton's support from Jacksonians gives her, as I have argued, a chance to overtake Obama in the popular vote and an opportunity to argue to the superdelegates that she should be the Democratic nominee. They're a significant bloc of voters in Pennsylvania, North Carolina, West Virginia, and Kentucky (although I should note that this week's polls in Pennsylvania show her running behind my projections). The Democratic Party has seldom won a presidential election without their support: Jimmy Carter carried Jacksonian voters in 1976, and so did Bill Clinton in 1992 and, by a lesser margin, in 1996. If Al Gore had carried just West Virginia or Kentucky or Tennessee or Georgia or Arkansas--all states carried by Carter in 1976 and Clinton in 1992, all heavy with Jacksonians--he would have been elected president in 2000, and we wouldn't have spent 37 days arguing how to count the vote in Florida. This Democratic primary contest has become a bitter fight between blacks and Latinos, young and old, upscale and downscale--and academics and Jacksonians.

All in all this very detailed analysis completely disputes the lie propagated by the Obama campaign that they are the one's that have the more widespread support throughout the country. When the numbers are actually examined it becomes very clear that Hillary is the candidate that represents the vast majority of America. And the only Democratic candidate that will win the White House.



Display:


Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (2.00 / 8)

Too bad "THE PARTY" doesn't take the time to do analysis! The information is out there, they just choose to ignore it.


by ProudMilitaryMom on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 10:23:21 AM EST

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (2.00 / 2)

Yeah "THE PARTY is to busy counting states, votes, money raised, donors, etc...you know those nominal things


by chicagogene on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 10:32:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (2.00 / 1)

Yeah, their 48 state strategy will really pay off in November


by AnnC on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 12:00:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

50 states (2.00 / 2)

They will have campaigned in all 50 states by the general election, don't fret.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 12:05:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The citation of republican U.S. News (2.00 / 1)

is troubling.  Repug talking points seem to be whence a goodly portion of these posts are coming these days.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 12:10:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The citation of republican U.S. News (2.00 / 1)

Reilly, if you were supporting Clinton, you would better understand that we do not have a free press or an unbiased one. There is a lot of information that is simply not being reported. Al Gore went through this in 2000. I was trained by the AP to vet sources and be exrtremely critical of where information comes from. But it would seem as if rightwing information outlets now are some of the only places one can find the truth. I think this election is standing traditional assumptions about new sources on its head.


by linfar on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:25:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The citation of republican U.S. News (2.00 / 1)

If right wing news organizations are the source of "the truth," I think it's far more likely that you have predetermined "the truth" and then went looking for "sources" to prove what you already believe, rather than the other way around.


by coronado on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:55:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Snicker (none / 0)


by Bob Johnson on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 08:11:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The citation of republican U.S. News (none / 0)

If you have evidence that disputes the facts then present it. Otherwise your admonitions are fruitless  and foolish.


by Fleaflicker on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 02:01:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I have neither the time nor the (none / 0)

inclination to persuade avid Hillary supporters  of the truth or untruth of much of anything.  You are only interested in facts and figures which will boost your beloved candidate, eschewing and disdaining all others.  Which is all allowed, and should be on this blog.  The amount of time some of you spend on here is interesting.  It's become a vital support group for the rear guard.  But don't expect us Obama supporters to be drawn into your world other than a comment here and there, because we have more important matters to attend to, such as in our case preparing for the delegate convention in WA state, a lilly white state that Obama won by a huge margin.  We have worked harder and raised more money and have by far the most inspirational candidate. We will not be denied.  


by ReillyDiefenbach on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 02:54:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Barone doesn't have a horse here (none / 0)

He just calling it as he sees it.  There is no question that he has Republican sympathies but there is also no question that he is a authoritative expert on US political history - a much more substantial one than virtually anyone who posts on these pages.  You may not like what he says but there is no denying his expertise.

I think he has framed this Democratic party divide very well and haS done so in a way that is understandable and in perspective of historical traditions.


by lombard on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 03:34:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (2.00 / 5)

Clinton can carry all of the small counties she wants, what matters is winning where the damn people are located. Ask her boy ed rendell how he became governor of pa, carried 10 of 67 counties. The analysis of michigan and florida is nonsense, because neither candidate campaigned there.


by aaaa05 on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 10:34:39 AM EST

Odd claim! (2.00 / 5)

Even Obama admits that he ran ads in Florida although he claims that he couldn't help himself.  If I am not mistaken he also had a news conference or two when he was there for fund raising.  

Blindness to facts is a pitiful condition.


by macmcd on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 10:52:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Zzzzt, wrong answer (2.00 / 2)

He ran ads on MSNBC, which would not selectively show or not show the ads in certain states.  

He reported the issue, and they didn't deem it a major problem, since they'd also given Clinton leeway about the campaigning thing, since she'd been down there "fundraising."

Thankfully, the DNC is flexible on this sort of issue.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 11:08:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Zzzzt, wrong answer (none / 0)

If I'm not mistaken, they were allowed to fundraise in the state, just not campaign.


by AnnC on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 12:01:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yep (none / 0)

And I'm sure Clinton didn't give any campaign-related speeches while she was fundraising in Florida just after New Hampshire, and of course she wasn't campaigning when she advertised beforehand that her rally in Miami which was taking place the instant the polls closed.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 12:08:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Cites? (2.00 / 4)

"Reported the issue?"

To whom?  When?  And who are these "they" who didn't deem it a major problem?

Let me say a couple of things.  First, I flat don't think that happened, unless you are referring to the Obama camp's claim that they got an OK from SC's Democratic Party chair (now an Obama superdelegate).  If you are referring to that, your language is odd, which suggests to me that you were stating a "fact" you're not very sure about, which is a questionable practice.

Second, the pledge was a mutual pledge between the candidates.  It was not administered by the SC Democratic Party, the DNC, or anybody else.  There was no one to "report" it to, and no outside party who had the authority to "deem" their action anything.  Unless they had the permission of the Edwards and Clinton campaign, which they most assuredly did not because I know that Clinton, at least, protested Obama's action as soon as his campaign announced it would happen, then they were breaking their promise to those campaigns when they ran the ads.  Clinton and Edwards kept their promises, in reliance on the other campaigns to do the same.  Unfortunately, their reliance on the Obama campaign was misplaced.


by Trickster on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 12:26:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cites? (none / 0)

Obama's campaign reported it to the SC chapter of the Democratic National Committee, not the same thing as the SC Democratic Party. SC's chapter cleared it with the national Democratic National Committee and informed Obama's campaign of that decision. It was in essence this: If you are advertising on a national or international media that cannot exclude any particular market or state, then it's not in violation of the rules. Just like internet banner ads, which all the campaigns bought, which all ran in every state, even every country, even Antarctica (researchers there do have internet connections). By your logic, Obama, and everybody else have been campaigning in Antarctica. See how absurd that sounds?

Since the rules were made by the DNC, don't you think they are the best ones to interpret them, not the opposing campaigns?


by BeekerDynasty on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 03:12:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Zzzzt, wrong answer (none / 0)

Obama did "fundraising" in Florida also.


by Alice in Florida on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 11:17:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Odd claim! (2.00 / 1)

"Blindness to facts is a pitiful condition."

It's also a surefire way to get to the top of the MyDD rec list.


by Rumproast on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 02:21:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bring it on..the revote 2008 (none / 0)

"Neither candidate campaigned there".. Clinton is not afraid of a revote - BO, not so much.  


by Molee on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 10:07:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (2.00 / 5)

Eloquent fool?  Quite the fool - beating your fighter in every known metric.  


by interestedbystander on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 10:36:54 AM EST

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (none / 0)

Did you watch the Harball hour? It was quite funny. I especially enjoyed the question about what he would do when the phone rang at 3;00 a.m. and there was a hijacking of American planes.
Well, it appears he would give a long speech about his superior judgement and take lots of time to get good  intelligence, talk to people and consider the right thing to do for the country and the world. Do you want someone who diddles about in an emergency? There isn't time to set up a commitee! Sounds like the pet goat... No part of his answer had anything to do with the question. Lord help us..... the 'eloquent fool' for sure.
by georgiast on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 09:38:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (none / 0)

And Hillary would convene a focus group and find two other sides to a triangle.


by interestedbystander on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 10:12:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (2.00 / 4)

Electoral vote shows that she will beat Obama and McCain.  She will win in GE.


by JoeySky18 on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 10:41:22 AM EST

I don't think anyone can rightly (2.00 / 1)

assert that Hillary OR OBAMA will not beat McCain in the GE


by SocialDem on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 11:13:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (2.00 / 1)

Don't get ahead of yourself.  She needs the nomination first.  The odds on that are slim to none and slim is sitting on the bus leaving town.  The bus driver is about to start the engine.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 11:47:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (none / 0)

Forget the bus.  I liked the "jumped off the cliff" analogy better.  :)


Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.
by fogiv on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:08:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (2.00 / 1)

Gracias!


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:09:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (1.66 / 6)

I think you just pointed out how stupid the warrior is. If she couldn't figure out how to target areas with the most delegates up for grabs, it seems to disprove how smart you all think she is.


by lion king on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 10:44:16 AM EST

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (2.00 / 1)

Easy on the insults Simba.  


by dystopianfuturetoday on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 12:54:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (none / 0)

Yes, us eloquent fool supporters really should learn some manners.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:10:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (2.00 / 1)

I'm am eloquent fool as well.  We should set an example.


by dystopianfuturetoday on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 03:32:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (2.00 / 1)

I've always considered myself an ineloquent fool.


by the mollusk on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 04:59:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Meh. (1.75 / 4)

In contrast to Obama, Clinton has given herself the image of a fighter. And it's not entirely inauthentic.

Not entirely, no, but pretty close. Sleepwalking through the Bush years, with plenty of votes - AUMF, flagburning, Kyl-Lieberman - that supported rightwing policy in defiance of her own party does not a "warrior" make.

Hillary knows how to fight Democrats. It's republicans that she's pretty weak against.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 10:51:36 AM EST

Once again, primary victories are ABSOLUTELY (2.00 / 1)

NO indication of the GE.  There is no direct correlation there.  This argument is deeply flawed.  As a commenter just said:

"Clinton can carry all of the small counties she wants, what matters is winning where the damn people are located. Ask her boy ed rendell how he became governor of pa, carried 10 of 67 counties. The analysis of michigan and florida is nonsense, because neither candidate campaigned there."


by SocialDem on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 10:52:22 AM EST

Re: Once again, primary victories are ABSOLUTELY (none / 0)

    I suppose the Obama supporters would vote for her in the GE. The fact that AA voters support Obama doesn't mean they wouldn't support her if she were the nominee. Only the sexists would rationalize not voting for her.


by RC01 on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 05:33:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (1.83 / 6)

Perhaps if she had done a bit more winning, she wouldn't need to do so much warrioring.


by interestedbystander on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 10:55:22 AM EST

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (1.50 / 2)

This post deserves a celebratory end-zone dance. Bravo.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 11:22:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (1.00 / 1)

I thank you, madam (takes a bow).


by interestedbystander on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 02:33:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (none / 0)

Catfish - please uprate, or you will shortly be banned for ratings abuse.  If you don't know the rules, read the FAQ.


by interestedbystander on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 06:05:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well done. (2.00 / 0)

That will be President Eloquent Fool in due course.  
Just think of all the years of angry diaries we have to look forward to on the preferred website of the "loyal opposition."
by ReillyDiefenbach on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 11:45:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Brilliant and heartening. (2.00 / 7)

Thank you for this fine diary.  It is no wonder that Hillary does not quit and it is also no wonder that the Obama people are so afraid of her staying.  They see the handwriting on the wall just as Hillary and we do.  It has got to be a sick feeling in the pits of their stomachs.  I'll be that is why they are so filled with hate and vitriol.

Recommended!!!!!!!


by macmcd on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 10:56:12 AM EST

Re: Brilliant and heartening. (2.00 / 5)

Fleaflicker is in the top tier of our best writers.

And he consistently does the work -- the hard work -- of both researching and thinking through what he is writing about.

This isn't some cut-and-paste job.  This is REAL WRITING.  (Too little of that on the 'net.)


by susanhu on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 11:29:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow (1.00 / 1)

This isn't some cut-and-paste job.  This is REAL WRITING.  

If I didn't see the name, I'd think this was subtly mean-spirited sarcasm.

Just.... wow.


by BlueinColorado on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 12:36:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Brilliant and heartening. (2.00 / 1)

Thanks so much Susan. Coming from you that is a high compliment.


by Fleaflicker on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 02:04:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Explanations for the Intelligence Impaired (2.00 / 5)

Obama's whole campaign has been about how widespread his strength is. His campaign and his supporters like to point out how many states he has won. They don't bother to mention that the chances of a Democrat actually winning in those states during a GE is minuscule. The Obama campaign has also criticized Hillary for concentrating on and WINNING in the states we need to win to gain the electoral votes necessary to win in November. You can't have it both ways. And as this brilliant article makes clear, it is Hillary that actually has the most widespread support.


by Fleaflicker on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 11:00:51 AM EST

Once again, primary victories are ABSOLUTELY (2.00 / 1)


NO indication of the GE.  There is no direct correlation there.  This argument is deeply flawed.  As a commenter just said:

"Clinton can carry all of the small counties she wants, what matters is winning where the damn people are located. Ask her boy ed rendell how he became governor of pa, carried 10 of 67 counties. The analysis of michigan and florida is nonsense, because neither candidate campaigned there."


by SocialDem on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 11:03:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

How about the Gallup poll? (none / 0)

Spin that away.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 11:55:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ok then, dispute my (none / 0)

argument then.  So a win in California is indicative of how Clinton can win there. Is a win from Barack in Idaho indicative that he can beat McCain in the GE?


by SocialDem on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 11:57:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ok then, dispute my (none / 0)

Or how about a state like Alabama? or Mississippi?


by SocialDem on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 12:01:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I realize this is the latest Clinton talking point (1.66 / 3)

You can choose to ignore the polls, that's your perfect right.  Rasmussen shows Hillary's negatives holding steady at 52%, the highest of any of the three by far.  I think we can stipulate that percentage to be set in stone, as HRC is known to all, and people have made up their minds about her at this point.  When her tax returns finally become public and the Clntons' fraud trial gets underway there will not be much left to salvage.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 12:25:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I realize this is the latest Clinton talking p (2.00 / 1)

I think SocialDem's point was that primary wins automatically meaning that the winner of that primary will carry that state is completely flawed.  He wasn't arguing for Hillary, in fact he's arguing against the people that say that because Hillary won many deep blue states, Barack can't win them.


And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.
by thatpurplestuff on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 12:46:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Exactly (none / 0)


by SocialDem on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 06:10:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Soitgoes (none / 0)

If you troll rate me again, I will report you to the admins.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:37:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Or is it your position that (2.00 / 1)

California will go red because Obama is the nominee? Or New York? or Mass? Gallup polls on GE matchups at this point are completely pointless in April.


by SocialDem on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 11:59:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Explanations for the Intelligence Impaired (2.00 / 2)

But you do know of course that Obama is never ever responsible for what anyone in his campaign does or says...
;-)
Grumpy, reluctant, sore-losing, unhappy, irritable Hillary supporter for Barack Obama 2008
by DemAC on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 11:33:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

He is responibile, but to use the words of one (none / 0)

of his own and then right away assume that that is his position or his feeling on the subject is just plain wrong.


by SocialDem on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 12:02:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

For instance (none / 0)

Should we assume what Ferraro said about Barack is how Hillary Clinton feels?


by SocialDem on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 12:04:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Who Was The Fool? (2.00 / 1)

Who spent all her campaign funds in January, because the contest would surely be over by Super Tuesday?
Who hired Mark Penn, McAuliffe, Wolfson and Ickes to drive her campaign into the ditch?
Who lied in recorded public speeches at least 3 times about 'sniper fire', although the incident she lied about was also recorded?
Who voted to give Bush the authority to invade Iraq, but she didn't think he'd actually do it?
Who thinks she deserves the nomination with fewer elected delegates, fewer popular votes, fewer states, and fewer grassroots donors?
Who thinks she's Rocky Balboa, who lost the fight by a vote of the judges.

Wow, you go, girl!


Let the children lose it Let the children use it Let all the children boogie
by toyomama on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:07:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Name Recognizers and the Educated (none / 0)

Clinton consistantly leads in voters who do not pay close attention to politics and have never heard of Barack Obama until very recently.

That's certainly true, and is basically the crux of the article.

Obama can't be everywhere at once; he can only get his word out a bit at a time, and Clinton's 16 years of name recognition is a huge hurdle to jump, but he's doing it, and consistantly enough that he's winning the hearts, minds, votes, and money of people all over the country.

Clinton is winning those things, too, but they don't make up nearly as much of her vote as the people who generally vote Democratic and remember the '90s fondly as a time when we weren't bogged down by war & recession.  In the choice between the known (Clinton) and the unknown (who names their kid "Barack," anyway. O'Bama, is that Irish?), they go for the known.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 11:03:37 AM EST

Re: The Name Recognizers and the Educated (none / 0)

That's certainly true, and is basically the crux of the article.

Funny.... I didn't read that ANYWHERE in the article.


by Fleaflicker on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 02:07:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (1.66 / 3)

If only that "warrior" had shown up during her seven-plus years as a Senator, against Bush and Cheney, instead of during the last two months, against another Democrat, maybe she wouldn't have to be fighting so hard right now.


by BlueinColorado on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 11:05:14 AM EST

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (none / 0)

At least she showed up....


by susanclare on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 06:37:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (none / 0)

Yup. To vote for Bush's war. And her husband lobbied for it.

If that's what they show up for, can they stop showing up?


by BlueinColorado on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 06:54:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (none / 0)

hmmm.... more ratings abuse from Clinton supporters.  

I think I'll go on strike.


by BlueinColorado on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 06:55:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Disconnect (2.00 / 3)

Neither in passages quoted from Barone, nor even in Fleaflicker's contribution, is there anything to suggest Obama is a "fool". But Fleaflicker just had to jam the cheap insult in there.

Says a lot.

Shame, really.


by BlueinColorado on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 11:27:19 AM EST

Yes it does. There has been many a plea (2.00 / 0)

for civility, but as we can see that for some, that plea has fallen on deaf ears.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 11:50:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes it does. There has been many a plea (none / 0)

What gets me is that quite a few people that are being insulted right now argued to the mods that some of the people tossed off for being divisive should be unbanned. Well, we feel awfully foolish now, lemme tell ya.

Just can't do ANYTHING without insulting Obama or his supporters, huh?


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 04:39:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disconnect (1.66 / 3)

I thought it was a Brilliant title!


by Fleaflicker on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 02:08:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disconnect (none / 0)

Fool.


by interestedbystander on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 02:51:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disconnect (none / 0)

I thought it was moronic.

Please explain how someone who's won more states, more votes and more delegates and has raised more money from more contributors can compare as a fool to a lesser candidate.


by bookish on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 03:44:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disconnect (none / 0)

False. And offensive. And I'm complaining about it to the mod.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 04:40:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disconnect (none / 0)

I would hate to be a mod on this site. "Mod, Hillary supporters are touching me again!" "But Obama supporters started it!"

I think everyone could use a few deep breaths here.


by Okamifujutsu on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 06:14:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disconnect (none / 0)

We're not even talking about harsh criticism, we're talking about a direct insult. And not even on the supporters this time, on the candidate. Suppose I made a post called "Hillary the Tough Idiot". What do you think would happen?


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 06:42:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disconnect (none / 0)

We have to get rid of the whining, but it starts by getting rid of the stuff that deliberately incites anger. Fleaflicker is one of those people. And admitted they only did it to draw attention, which just makes it more damning.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 06:44:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disconnect (none / 0)

I'm sure you did.

Which is both funny, and sad.


by BlueinColorado on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 06:56:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (none / 0)

its really sad but I will admit if she turns this around and actually wins the popular vote she will not only be a warrior but magician too I would be very very shocked  Impressed but very shocked  


John McCain's pick-up line is, 'Did you know that 150 is the new 130?'"
by wellinformed on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 11:28:12 AM EST

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (none / 0)

You should cross-post this on Kos but for Kos and myDD, change the title. No need to call him a fool.

There was an old diary I liked that likened him to Hamlet. Whatever..but find a less antagonistic name.


by NY Writer on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 11:35:11 AM EST

No, Hamlet would be John Edwards (none / 0)

Although he would be of the cornpone variety.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 11:52:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Fool. The educated fool. (none / 0)

The intelligent fool.

What did Malcolm X say about what white folks call black folks with a PhD?

All those black folks who are passing in the ultra white states are pretty damn sneaky.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 11:44:18 AM EST

Re: Fool. The educated fool. (none / 0)

What did he say - not snark, I'm a brit and don't know too much about that era (although I am trying to catch up)?  Thanks in advance.


by interestedbystander on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 02:54:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Fool. The educated fool. (none / 0)

Malcolm X said that White Americans will still call him a (insert offensive racial slur here which I would feel comfortable using since I'm black but don't want to offend and it's not necessary.

His point of course was that no matter how accomplished, a black man is always seen as less than worthy of full human rights and respect.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 05:44:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (2.00 / 4)

Good information and great diary.


by environmentally blue on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 11:48:58 AM EST

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (2.00 / 0)

After the 2004 election, Republicans gloated about how the electoral map showed enormous swaths of red. "They only get the coasts and the Great Lakes!" they  taunted.

And yes, when viewed as a mere graphic, it was impressive to see all that red covering almost everything west of the Mississippi and up to the West Coast.

But while it was some nice eye-candy for the base, it also meant little. For all their bragging, Kerry still got within about 150,000 Ohio votes of winning the presidency.

As you know, this is because the 500,000 people living in Wyoming are far fewer than the 12 million living in Pennsylvania. Likewise, 1,000 people spread out over an enormous rural county is fewer than the 100,000 in a compact urban county.

If it contents you to say that Clinton does better in rural counties or Appalachia, that's great. As for us, we'll be fine with taking the votes and delegates that actually determine the nomination.

(And really, you just couldn't have made the same point without the petulant little insult in the title, could you?)


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 11:59:37 AM EST

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (none / 0)

Warriors are the people that her vote sent off to die in Iraq.

Actually that's slightly misleading.  A lot of the dead are children and civilians too.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 11:59:37 AM EST

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (2.00 / 2)

I appreciate the time you put into this, but I'm not sure how compelling this is.  Arguing "most counties" seems to me similar to arguing "most states".  I just don't see that it means too much.

I'm going to remain focused on "most votes", as I believe that is the framwork most consistent with progressive values.


by bobbank on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 12:03:10 PM EST

Solitaire Doesn't Count (2.00 / 0)

It's very odd that a diary so full of 'substance' would lead off with two states that didn't hold legitimate primaries.

Beyond this, it's absurd to think that Obama will lose the same states in the GE as he does in the primary.  Try and make sense of this logic for me.

When one of the candidates drops out, the (non-Limbaugh) voters will rally around the Democrat.  Those who claim they will vote more McCain are few and bluffing.

There are plenty of good arguments to be used in support of Hillary.  This kind of tortured spin isn't needed.  

Oh, and the name-calling.  It's not OK for Randi Rhodes and it isn't OK for you.  Show some class.


by dystopianfuturetoday on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 12:39:10 PM EST

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (none / 0)

I'm going to remain focused on "most delegates", as I believe that is the framework that has ALWAYS BEEN THE ONLY METRIC THAT COUNTS which makes it most consistent with how the nominee selection process has always worked.

Anything else is an attempt to make the winner not the winner.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 12:39:14 PM EST

Warrior Fool (none / 0)

Hillary will become the joke candidate if she stays in much longer.

I just heard on the Young Turks that Obama has now caught up in declared superdelegates. He's outspending Hillary 5-1 in PA advertising. Soon it'll be clear to everyone, except Hillary, that she cannot win, and that's just embarrassing...


by End game on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 12:43:28 PM EST

I just have one thing to say (none / 0)

and I know full well that this is going to get troll/hide rated but the source (US News and WOrld Report) demands that I do this:

snark on

SNIPERS, SNIPERS, SNIPERS
I AM HIT AND I AM GOING DOWN
I AM TAKING MASSIVE CASULTITES
SNIPERS, SNIPERS, SNIPERS
What my advisers would never talk about a free trade agreement with another country after I came out and opposed it.
Shame on you for disparaging my record (even though the fliers had it correct)

snark off

If you look at the map of Missouri do you know where democrats usually win, Where Sen. Obama won, in the Map of Ohio the counties he won (except for the cincy suburbs) aer the counties a democrat wins.  In texas who won where democrats roll up their margins there, Senator Obama.

Also what a wonderful source to cite (Mr. Barone), lets see how his predictions hold up once we finish the primary.


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:22:09 PM EST

How to Influence People (2.00 / 2)

The goal of this post, ostensibly, is to convince more people to support Hillary Clinton rather than Barack Obama. You severely undermine your argument when you start with:

"Warning: This is a long diary. It contains substance. If you are fact challenged or allergic to truth go elsewhere. This diary may be harmful to your health."

You've just insinuated that everyone who does not agree with you is someone who completely disregards substance, is "fact-challenged", and should "go elsewhere". Why, WHY would you do this to your target audience? You're going to end up further alienating those who don't agree with you while making Clinton supporters look pompous, arrogant, and generally a bad crowd to be around.

I'm an Obama supporter, but I don't bear that much animosity towards Clinton. I think she's run an awful, awful campaign, and she's cast a few very ill-advised votes, but she really isn't so bad. But some of her supporters - especially the ones who now run the rec list on this site - are repellent. I look at this group and think, "wow, I really want nothing to do with this group". I think you've become an impediment to liking or supporting Clinton. I try to ignore it - because a candidate is not the worst of their supporters - but its hard.

Yes, there are plenty of jerks supporting Obama as well. I yell at them on dkos sometimes. But it's really not as bad on the Obama side right now...look at the dkos rec list. There's a diary tracking the Clinton tax returns - not a hit piece, no attacks or false dichotomies, just a forum for discussion. There are overzealous Obama supporters in the comments, but they're roughly balanced out by people telling them to calm down and/or shut up.

Also - arguing that Obama supporters are all academics is idiotic on a few levels. First, there aren't 14 million academics in America. Secondly, why the hell are you insulting academics? What do you have against learning? Our candidates both come from intensive academic legal backgrounds! When you attack academics, you're attacking your own candidate. Why, why, why...

Lastly, trying to cast Clinton as the insurgent candidate is bordering on insane. This is the candidate who cultivated a lead of over 100 superdelegates among party insiders before voting started. The candidate who still retains that superdelegate lead on the strength of her support among unelected DNC officials. The candidate who, until recently, relied almost entirely on big-donor checks, "Hillraisers" and the like to bundle checks.

Your candidate is at this point down to a very, very shot at winning. You should be doing something to help with that, instead of making your fellow supporters look bad.


Unable to rec or rate
Still supporting Obama
Still not putting up with "preening" posts
by jaiwithani on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:25:02 PM EST

Re: How to Influence People (2.00 / 1)

Geez... it's just a warning. No need to read too much into it. It only means EXACTLY what it says. It doesn't insinuate a thing.


by Fleaflicker on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 02:10:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How to Influence People (2.00 / 0)

bullshiat.

the TITLE of your diary entry implies Obama is a fool.  from the get go you're "flicking" insults rather than trying for at least a reasoned analysis.

and the criticisms of your source are correct: the examples of Michigan and Florida are hugely misrepresentative, for the mere fact that Obama did not campaign in either state.  he STUCK to the principle of working with the DNC.  and now people want the votes for MI and FL to count as is.

i'll accept that you want to show how Hillary might be a better candidate than Obama, but let's not distort what you're doing either.


by fightinfilipino on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 03:17:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How to Influence People (none / 0)

Great comment, jaiwithani. There are really only a handful of over-the-top Hillary people here like FleaBitten, but apparently they have the run of the place, for better or worse. Mostly worse.


by jwolf on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 05:03:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (2.00 / 5)

And that's without even counting the lower middle class and poor women 40 and over of ALL races that are her strongest supporters.

And if any trolls trash women like myself (a 41 year old of the lower middle class, who lived far under the poverty line during my late childhood and youth when my parents divorced) for being a strong part Hillary's base for voting for Hillary "just because she's a woman" I will point out no one is criticizing African American voters of both genders (but weaker support from lower middle class and poor women 40 and over, especially if they were or are single mothers because they tend to support Hillary more)for voting for Obama.

The women who are that strong base for Hillary are there because she has proven to be the much stronger candidate on women's and children's issues. Both in her Civil service sector work and in politics. Do not mock or minimize this like the media- left, right and center has done. Women's and children's issues are real issues- core issues to millions of people.

That always comes first for me- women's and children's issues. Yes, I'm a feminist activist- and proud of it. I've been a feminist since I was   around 7 years old. It's why I was backing Hillary from the start, even though on other issues I was more in line with Kucinich and liked Edwards real life understanding of what it's like to be from the lower class in the US and his fierce determination for universal healthcare. Obama wasn't saying anything that connected with me, and when I saw his weak record on women's issues I knew he wasn't a candidate for  me. I didn't start disliking him, however, until he started making sexist attacks on Hillary and trashing the progressive activism of the 1960's and 70's. Praising Reagan didn't do him any favors in my book either. (and don't parse what he said, please- I saw the interview. Right before he praised Reagan he again trashed the progressive activism of the 1960's and 70's again. Those things are tied together.) Obama's misogynist supporters in the media- left and MSM, have only solidified this part of Hillary's base, and have turned many against voting for Obama- ever. Even should he get the party nomination and Hillary beg us to vote for him. They are going to either just not for president or are going to write Hillary in. I'm strongly considering the later.

Every time an Obama blogger harasses a Hillary blogger you just make that Hillary blogger that much more determined to vote for Hillary and never vote for Obama. Think about that, for your candidate's sake. Every nasty comment loses your candidate votes should he win the nomination. If you stop stalking Hillary bloggers and harassing them you lessen Hillary bloggers anger at Obama bloggers- and remember, you as bloggers represent your candidate here. You want to see less angry Hillary blogger diaries stop harassing them and making them more angry.


by K1966 on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:32:41 PM EST

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (none / 0)

I'm going to insist that you reference and source:

"weak record on women's issues"
and
"sexist attacks"

If you can't do that then your argument has no weight other than as hollow hyperbole and there's no point in listening to anything you have to say.

Also, if you think that not voting for the eventual candidate will help your cause with women/feminist issues, then just consider that the next president will likely nominate 2-3 judges for SCOTUS. If you want to turn the gun on yourself, go right ahead, but you lose the right to complain about the results of your actions after the fact.


by bookish on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 03:58:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (2.00 / 1)

I don't need to reference what I've heard and seen for months. Go google his record and his words yourself, plenty of bloggers have referenced Obama's sexist comments, even bloggers that haven't committed themselves that strongly to either candidate like Liss at Shakesville. Quit pretending people who disagree with you haven't researched things themselves and have very valid backing for their conclusions. Obama's voting record on women's and children's issues is also available online.

Don't be so sure Obama will be the candidate. Hillary is just as likely to be the nominee.

And if he is the nominee, I probably won't vote for Obama because his record on women's and children's issues is hardly different from McCain's.

Since you brought up justices- he praised and initially endorsed Robert's nomination to the Supreme Court, only changing his vote when his own chief of staff told him it would look bad on his future presidential bid if he voted for an extreme conservative like Roberts.

Hillary spoke out against Robert's nomination and did not vote for him. I have zero confidence in Obama appointing a justice to the Supreme Court that would be supportive of women's  issues. Obama has outright said he would appoint justices like Roberts to the bench. That's no different from McCain.

So no "hyperbole" here, research (for voting records) and my own ears for the sexist comments. I will not vote for either Obama or McCain (or Nader for that matter- while not being as overtly sexist, he has dismissed women's issues as "unimportant", so no votes for Nader from me.) Hillary is my candidate, the only one who supports the issues most important to me. Which starts with women's and children's issues but includes other progressive issues as well that Obama is the  weaker candidate on.


by K1966 on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 07:25:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (none / 0)

I can't find any sexist comments or see anywhere that he's weak on women's issues, so I guess I'll just have to disregard that part of your comment.

The idea that Clinton and Obama have an equal likelihood of becoming the nominee is...nevermind, there's no need to go there.

You are obviously a dedicated partisan follower of your candidate, and that's a good thing for the primary season. But if you decide to take the hurt you are likely to feel going into the general and use it as an excuse to either not vote or vote against the Democratic nominee, then you run the risk of undermining the progress you hope to make on issues of importance to you.

I'm sorry you feel that Obama could somehow not be attuned to women's issues. I think you may be minimizing his dedication in your own mind out of a sense of loyalty to your candidate. I hope you'll revisit his record at some point and parse it in a more objective manner.


by bookish on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 07:59:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Playing the Roe card (2.00 / 1)

Women were told, when they objected to anti-choice Harry Reid being named Senate Majority Leader, "Don't be a single issue voter."  Now after disregarding us, the Obama camp, who only very late in the day are beginning to realize they need the gender gap to win (and many sadly still don't realize it), says, "Be a single issue voter."

We are not fools, and not so easily bought.

I don't support Obama not only because Hillary rocks, but because I don't believe he has the experience required to pick good justices (among other things).

Much to the dismay of Michael Farris in Constitutional Law for Christian Students:

In 1992, the Supreme Court considered the case of Planned Parenthood of Southern Pennsylvania v. Casey, 120 L. Ed. 2d 674 (1992). ...Justices O'Connor, Kennedy, Souter, Stevens, and Blackmun joined together to hold that Roe was still valid and that speculation on its demise should be put to rest.

   All five of these justices were appointed by Republican presidents. Justice Blackmun was appointed by President Nixon in 1970. Justice Stevens was appointed by President Ford in 1975. Justices O'Connor and Kennedy were appointed by President Reagan in 1981 and 1988 respectively. Justice Souter was appointed by President Bush in 1990.

   The only justice appointed by a Democrat president, Justice White, appointed by President Kennedy in 1962, joined three Republican appointed justices, Justice Scalia (Reagan, 1986), Chief Justice Rehnquist (Nixon, 1972), and Thomas (Bush, 1991) who argued that Roe should be reversed.


by Larissa on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 10:18:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Playing the Roe card (none / 0)

So you've projected things you were told about Harry Reid and court related instances that occurred in 1992 onto Obama? I don't think this response addresses my original query about hard evidence of sexism or a weakness for women's issues in the Obama camp. Please let me know if I'm missing something.


by bookish on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 10:51:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (2.00 / 1)

K, I loved your comment. There are a lot of us out here who feel this way...and we're not going to be around in this democratic party much longer...


by susanclare on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 06:50:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Warrior and the Eloquent Fool (none / 0)

Thank you. I think it's better to stay and fight the